notgeldman

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  • in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35035
    notgeldman
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    Nate – I’ve seen this before but don’t understand the imagery at all. Do You?

    The Reutergeld album looks lovely in red/pink!! Mine sold already though……….

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35034
    Nathaniel Butler
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    And here is a Bielefelder Stadtscheine booklet from my collection

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35033
    Nathaniel Butler
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    Here’s the back side

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35032
    Nathaniel Butler
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    Here’s an interesting Beilefelder Stadtgeld advertisement from my collection

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35030
    Nathaniel Butler
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    Marcel – that green album is beautiful! I’ll have to keep an eye out for one

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35027
    notgeldman
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    I had a Reutergeld pamplet once with Fritz reuter picture:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35021
    Avatar photoMarcel Molkenboer
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    In my collection: the Reuter-notes and the green Reuter-album (with the complete serie). Also the DVD and the book by Ingrid Moeller. The briefcase is on my wishlist !

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35020
    Avatar photoMarcel Molkenboer
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    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35019
    Avatar photoMarcel Molkenboer
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    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35018
    Avatar photoMarcel Molkenboer
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    That is a nice article about Reuter and the Reutergeld. It was (and is) a very popular Serienscheine edition. It was a big operation to combine 70 cities and five artists. To make it a succes there was a promotion campaign. Not only you can buy the 70 series, but there were albums (in red, blue and green) with the 210 notes and two kind of briefcases in cardboard and artficial leather) with the notes and information. All kind of flyers made it all complete. Mentioned is even a “Reuter-Geschellschaftsspiel” (a board game), but never displayed.

    In the 1990’s a beautiful oversized book was published about Reutergeld: Ingrid Moeller; “Das Mecklenburgische Reutergeld von 1922, ein kulturgeschichtliches Kuriosum”. A feast for the eye.

    Marian Reijersen from the Netherlands made a DVD-book about Reuter and the notes in 2011 and is still for sell.

    in reply to: stoffgeld (material pieces) #35016
    Nathaniel Butler
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    Mine is 34mm diameter, 5-5.5mm thick. My scale broke (corroded batteries :wacko:) and I need to get a new one, so I don’t have a way to measure the weight right now. Once I get a new scale I will share the weight!

    in reply to: stoffgeld (material pieces) #35015
    notgeldman
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    Nate – have you seen my table with the coin data? I am convinced that there are fakes out there as the sizes should all be identical (each face value that is) and the thickness of each coin too. If you email me with your data for the coin you have, I will add it in. Over time, we may build up a better picture. The table will show you that there are a few anomalies……….. :scratch:

    in reply to: stoffgeld (material pieces) #35003
    Nathaniel Butler
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    Thank you! Hope to find a nicer 500 mark piece eventually, but have to be patient! :)

    Here is my compressed coal dust 1922 100 mark coin. This one is hand numbered ‘734’. Hope to buy the other 2 denominations eventually!

    in reply to: stoffgeld (material pieces) #35002
    notgeldman
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    Nate – again, you’ve done really well as these are all in very good condition. Nice one!! ;-)

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35001
    Nathaniel Butler
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    Thank you! Yes, these can be very hard to find at all, but especially in nice condition.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #35000
    notgeldman
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    Hi Nate!

    I only had 3 of the set of 4. They are real scarce pieces and you have done so well because the condition of all your pieces is very good. I have seen very tatty pieces before. As you have the catalogues, you’ll know their cat values!! ;-)

    in reply to: stoffgeld (material pieces) #34999
    Nathaniel Butler
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    Set of aluminum foil notes from my collection, purchased a few years ago

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34998
    Nathaniel Butler
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    Thanks, Tony! Happy to be part of the club now.

    I’ll share one of my favorite sets from my collection. This set took me years to put together!

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34997
    notgeldman
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    Here is the link that Nate kindly provided.

    https://imgur.com/a/oDOmMIo

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34996
    notgeldman
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    I’ve just published my latest article on inflationary notes I found from Letmathe. (Homepage right-hand side) :wacko:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34995
    notgeldman
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    Thanks Nate……and welcome to the forum. Thanks for your post. :good:

    I just edited your post so the link opened in a new window but its disappeared now!

    I’ll sort out tomorrow if it doesn’t reappear!! :cry:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34990
    Nathaniel Butler
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    I took screenshots of the Reutergeld article from the March 2021 Numismatist issue that was referenced earlier in this thread. You can see it here:

    https://imgur.com/a/oDOmMIo

    in reply to: stoffgeld (material pieces) #34981
    notgeldman
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    Very interesting…..as we know the date of the notes/pieces are incorrectly stated in 1921……………as the Ruhr metioned on one of the types actually happened the year after……….

    It could have been a ploy then by the Bielefeld stadtsparkasse to jump on the collector boom of 1921!! They couldn’t have done it in 1914 because of the Great War starting but more importantly the notgeld collecting market just wasn’t there. :good:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34980
    Avatar photoMarcel Molkenboer
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    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34979
    Avatar photoMarcel Molkenboer
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    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34978
    Avatar photoMarcel Molkenboer
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    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34977
    Avatar photoMarcel Molkenboer
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    Altrahlstedt are masters in recycling there notes. These are the third edition with a overprint. One note with 20.000.000 Mk I do not have in my (phot0-) collection. The hyper-inflation overprints are on the notes with the first and second overprint.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34975
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Gary – the underwear banknote thieves were caught not by security checks on their persons but when one of them tried to pay a large sum in used notes into a local bank.  Only one of the gang was criminally prosecuted, and got an 18-month prison sentence; the other six were sued by the Bank of England for a cool half a million pounds.  Ouch.  I used to play at the snooker hall next to the incinerator plant at the time and had no idea of the crime going on just a couple of hundred yards away. Btw, just in case anyone’s interested and has 15,000 euros spare : here’s a screenshot of the ebay offer of the Saar note for 15,000 euros (on ebay.de) – the auction finishes tomorrow!

    in reply to: stoffgeld (material pieces) #34962
    Avatar photoMarcel Molkenboer
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    I searched the internet for the 800 years City of Bielefeld. To my surpize in 2014 they had the feast. So, 16 and 17 july 1921 was the wrong date. The mistake was made because they thought then that the first time Bielefeld was mentioned was in 1221, but the official foundation date was 1214.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34949
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Hi Dan, just saw your post now that Tony’s moved it!  I’m pretty sure you mean the buildings on the Erfurt sets G. / M. 344.5 and 344.6, so here goes …

    On the reverse of the notes, the buildings are identified by the textbox on the right, which means that on the 50 Pfennig note we have the Dom, Severi und Predigerkirche (i.e. St Mary’s Cathedral – in the middle -  and St Severus’ church – on the right, both of which are next to each other on the Domberg or Cathedral Hill; nearby we have the unusually named Preacher’s Church – on the left on the note).  The 10 Pfennig note has the scene Alt Erfurt Am Dämmchen (Erfurt Old Town, on the artificial island known as the Dämmchen – “little causeway or dam” – on one of the arms of the River Gera) with the steeple of St Bartholomew’s recognisable in the background. The 20 Pfennig note has the Alte Universität Michaeliskirche (Old University St Michael’s Church), where we see on the left with the archway the Collegium Maius, former seat of the old university (founded 1392), St Michael’s Church being the rather squat building on the right.  The 25 Pfennig note shows the Krämerbrucke und Aegidienkirche (the famous Merchant’s Bridge and St Aegidius’ Church).

    The obverse of the notes also show buildings but does not identify them by name.  However, it’s possible to recognise the steeple of St Paul’s in the background of the right-hand panel of the 20 Pfennig note.  The 25 Pfennig note shows the now ruined Franciscan Church (victim of Allied bombing) on the left-hand panel;  and on the right-hand panel the churches look like the Merchants’ Church on the left and the church of St Augustine’s monastery on the right.  The steeples of the Franciscan Church and St Augustine’s look similar but the pitch of the roof is different (and St Augustine’s is closer to the Merchants’ Church).   The right-hand panel of the 50 Pfennig note seems to show All Saints Church at the end of the street, which may be Allerheiligenstrasse.

    The other buildings don’t seem to match historic buildings that survived the 27 air attacks on Erfurt and the shelling that preceded ground operations to take the town in April 1945. I may have to have a longer look at pre-war postcards to identify them, but I hope the work done so far helps a little to answer your question.

     

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34948
    notgeldman
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    Dan – thanks for your post which I moved to here and can be seen below (about 3 or 4 posts down) – hopefully someone will reply…….

    in reply to: articles you want to see #34947
    notgeldman
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    Dessau military set of 6 – actioned.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34945
    notgeldman
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    Hi everyone – I’ve just published my ‘Dessau’ serienscheine article – you’ll find it on the left hand side of the homepage. :good:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34940
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Good point.  I suppose, if someone were energetic enough to ask for information from the government there…

    I saw on Ebay that a replica of that note is for sale from Albania or one of those countries.

    I should buy it and frame it.  Then put a label on it saying something like: “More expensive than a 1/2 pound (troy) gold bar.”

    I like that story about the cleaning staff going home with their underwear stuffed with old notes.  There are several spy/thriller books and movies out about someone getting hold of the plates used for making currency.  How did they ever catch those underwear theives?  I can imagine a lot of people wanting that job.

    Also a true story of the Germans using an expert engraver, a concentration camp inmate, to produce currency plates, mostly of British £.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34936
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    A gifted counterfeiter would definitely make a profit on this one!  Just thinking about the apparent issue of over 40,000 notes, going by the serial number 44628, and where the notes might have ended up … perhaps the serial number is simply an indication of how many notes were printed, rather than how many were issued?  It may be that they had a high print run but then issued relatively few.  As to what may have happened to a surfeit of banknotes – I used to live in Debden in northeast London, just round the corner from the Bank of England’s incinerator plant, where recalled and out-of-circulation banknotes were disposed of (there was a scandal there back in the early 90s when it was discovered that cleaning staff had been leaving the premises with their underwear stuffed with banknotes).  So I wonder whether the apparent rarity of this particular note might be due to it not having been actually issued in quantity, and the larger part of the print run destroyed, perhaps because of a change in policy?  (Rubs chin thoughtfully …)

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34934
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Based on the serial number of the note in the photo, there could be some 40,000 of these notes outstanding.  Probably more.  What could have happened to all of them?  Stored in someone’s attic perhaps?

    Again, for that high a valuation, counterfeiting is a strong possibility.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34932
    Avatar photoDaniel Gerken
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    I have not been on the forum for a while.  To Charles, yes I have the notes you referred to.  I have the Erfurt set. Very colorful. I do not speak German, so I often need help with translations. For the Erfurt set, I would like help in identifying the buildings depicted on each note of the set.  I believe I recognize the monestery which Luther joined.  I do also collect other Luther items such as stamps, medals, postcards.  Dan

    in reply to: Hilf !!! (Help)!! #34931
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Hi Charles, I’ve looked under Crusauer (and Krusauer) Kupfer- und Messingwerke in all the Gietl-Verlag catalogues I have, covering war issues, Verkehrsausgaben, Grossgeld, Serienscheine, the periods of inflation (including the addendum in volume 8) and Wertbeständiges Notgeld; checked the Lindman catalogues I have; and gone through the other works on my shelves, but have come up with nothing.  Unfortunately I don’t have Karl Lund’s book.  I’ve also checked under Flensburg and its suburb of Kupfermühle, where the factory was located (and which is actually named after the factory).  On some auction sites I’ve found pictures of what look like 1,000-Mark notes from the Crusauer Kupfer- und Messingwerke, but are in fact share certificates (Aktie, or as it’s spelled on there : Actie – again that thing about the C / K spelling shift. I attach a photo below). My other suggestion might be to contact the Industriemuseum Kupfermühle GmbH, a museum on the site of the factory which is all about the copper and brass industry; the postal address of the administration is Im Erdbeerfeld 6, 24955 Harrislee, Germany and their email address is museum@kabelmail.de (website : http://www.industriemuseum-kupfermuehle.de); the address of the actual museum site itself is Messinghof 3, 24955 Harrislee.  They’re closed due to Covid at the moment and I must admit that my own emails and letters to a couple of German museums and archives have gone unanswered in the last year of the pandemic, so I wouldn’t guarantee an immediate answer!  Hope this might help in some way.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34930
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    We’ve stayed in Saarbrücken a couple of times in the last few years -  a nice town, in a pretty area, and with a great swimming pool : the Calypso.  I had a look in the latest Rosenberg catalogue (completely updated and re-numbered by Grabowski in 2018) to see the catalogue price and wow, sure enough it’s actually 15,000 euros!  So the price on ebay is, well, for want of a better word, right.  Also the catalogue gives the price of 20,000 euros for the whole set of 1947 Saar specimen notes with a zero serial number;  that’s quite eye-watering. And possibly a reminder not to inadvertently scratch one’s nose at an auction.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34929
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    My wife was born in Saarbrücken, way before the war.  Saarbrücken is the capital of the Saarland region, which was French for a few years after the war.  That’s why the note is denominated as 100 Marks and the French “Cent”.

    As a complete aside, did you know that the fraction of the Italian Lira (pre-Euro) was called Centissimi?  I always got a kick out of that word.

    Found a colored photo of that note.  Incidentally, you have to be very wary of Ebay prices.  People can ask anything, doesn’t mean they’ll get it.

    For a note that expensive, I’m willing to bet that someone would counterfeit it.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34928
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Yes, of course, RS is Rückseite, or backside.  As in Rucksack or backpack (do they still use that word?).  Sorry, my mind isn’t nearly as sharp as it once was.  Hope I’m not getting the big “A”.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34927
    notgeldman
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    Glad I restricted my collecting from 1914 – 1923/4 !!

    I always remember VS as front and RS as back (reverse).

    When you get into different watermarks, always best to hold the piece up to a window in the light of day…..I’ve always found. They I refer back to my catalogues as they have the main watermarks listed in the front or back….can’t remember which. There is also a link on my ‘other links’ tab to a good watermarks site I found a long time ago……..if you ever need that!

    Thanks guys for all the forum posts! :yahoo:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34926
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    I just looked for that note on Ebay but didn’t see it.  Here is a picture from Grabowski’s 2006 catalog:

    in reply to: stoffgeld (material pieces) #34925
    notgeldman
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    Good point Gary! We will wait and see. Poessneck did it with the leather pieces, I think 60 years after the originals??, so there should be other places doing something I would assume. The Bielefeld money pieces would sure be a great hit with todays collectors.

    in reply to: Hilf !!! (Help)!! #34924
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Charles, please be a little more explicit.  What sort of notes are Crusau-notes?  The series money? The commercial money?  Post WWI money?  etc.

    Have you seen any?  Are they spelled with a “C” or a “K”?  A little more info might help.

    in reply to: Identification #34923
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    I’m glad that’s over with.  Thanks to the major effort put in by Guru John.  Didn’t mean to create a problem, thought T-GM would take a glance at it and know immediately what it was.

    But in a way, I’m happy that it generated some real thought-provoking detective work.

    Anytime you want a plane geometry problem to solve, let me know.  I invented one.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34922
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    DEEP POCKETS?  It’s a little outside our usual area of collection, but falls under the topic of German Notgeld – there is currently a kassenfrisch 1947 100-Mark note from the Saarland (catalogues as Rosenberg 872/SAR-13) on ebay for a reserve price of 15,000.00 euros!  There’s a description of it, but no picture of it  – the vendor explains that the note itself is in a safety deposit box so he’s substituted a picture of another note (an old Wilhelmine colonial issue), just to give people zapping through an idea of the kind of note on offer.

    Has anyone seen a German note with this kind of price tag?  Or even more expensive?  Could be a conversation starter!

    in reply to: Identification #34919
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Gary, you’ve hit the nail firmly on the head!  Found the last piece of the puzzle!  There are quite a few Oberrossbachs in Germany, but one quite small one is, as you say just 3 miles down the road from Witzenhausen. Not only that, but it’s only about 5-6 miles east of the Stiftskirche at Kaufungen.

    But here’s the clincher.  Oberrossbach is the site of an observation tower, built in 1869.  It’s called the Bilsteinturm or Bilstein Tower. and a photo of it is a complete match to the picture bottom right (whereas my previous idea, the ruin of Castle Bilstein near Eschwege looks nothing like it).

    W.O.C.G. must logically be Witzenhausen-Oberrossbach-Cassel-Grossalmerode; if one takes the location of these towns and villages, and factors in the locations of the four monuments at Witzenhausen, Kaufungen, Hessisch Lichtenau and Oberrossbach, you get a triangle whose points are Cassel, Witzenhausen and Hessisch Lichtenau which covers an area of around 105 square miles, with the greatest distance between any two points being 22-23 miles.

    The four places mentioned in the acronym would be the locations of retailers who are members of the association.  The area covered by the retailers’ locations (subtracting the nearby site historical significance, Burg Reichenbach) is even smaller if you just look at a triangle from Cassel to Witzenhausen to Grossalmerode, which encloses Oberrossbach : just under 60 square miles.

    Thanks so much for all the work that must have led to this stroke of genius – you’re a Notgeld star!  Gute Zusammenarbeit, as they say in German : thanks for such a successful collaboration!

    in reply to: Identification #34918
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    How about Oberrossbach? It’s in the Witzenhausen area.

    Another thought:  Perhaps each of the 4 castles/stones is in one of the 4 WOCG places.

    in reply to: Identification #34917
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Thanks for your kind comments, Gary.  I love notes that really make me work for any understanding!

    I think I’ve found the castle depicted bottom right (I was up at 5.00 this morning with my head buzzing!).  Now that we know the note’s from Grossalmerode and that the local places depicted are definitely Ludwigstein Castle at Witzenhausen, the Stiftskirche at Kaufungen (a stone’s throw from Grossalmerode) and the castle of Reichenbach at nearby Hessisch Lichtenau, I knew that the other castle couldn’t be far away.  It’s not the Castle of Bilstein 70 miles away to the west in the Sauerland, but in fact there is an overgrown ruin of another Castle Bilstein just down the River Werra at Eschwege. about 9 miles ESE of Grossalmerode.  So the printing wasn’t so unclear after all!

    The districts of W.O.C.G. must therefore refer to Witzenhausen, Cassel (now Kassel) and Grossalmerode (not Göttingen).  Still looking for the O!

    in reply to: Identification #34915
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    I cannot understand why some towns proudly display the town name on the currency and others hide it or make it difficult to decipher.

    John, I think you should have the title WIZARD!

    I too looked up the monuments but to no avail.  Then, I went over all the W’s, picture by picture until I was seeing double.  Again to no avail.

    Amazingly great detective job.

    in reply to: Identification #34914
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Fabulous, John.  You’re more than a Guru.  Perhaps a Patron Saint?  Anyway, I can see you put a lot of effort into this and I thank you wholeheartedly.

    in reply to: Identification #34913
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Hi, Gary!  Found it! Seek and ye shall find! Your note is Grossalmerode (probably Tieste 2500.05.15),  There’s another version of it with the name of the issuing town on it.  I couldn’t go to bed without solving that one!

    in reply to: Identification #34912
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Hi Gary, lots to think about here!  It’s issued by a Detaillisten-Vereinigung e.V., which is a registered Retailers’ Association.  One identifiable place on the note is the castle of Ludwigstein, top left, which is within the municipality of Witzenhausen in Hessen;  the collegiate church top right (Stiftskirche), may well therefore be the one at Kaufungen, about 12 miles WSW of Witzenhausen.  There is a castle ruin of Reichenbach (bottom left) about 14 miles SW of Witzenhausen.  The printer is located in Allendorf a/W, which must be Allendorf on the Werra (as opposed to Allendorf on the Eder), and Allendorf on the Werra is situated 8 miles or so SE of Witzenhausen, so I think we can triangulate it to this area of Hessen.

    The districts (Bezirke) W.O.C.G. could therefore be Witzenhausen, somewhere beginning with O (i’ve searched!), Cassel (which was spelled with a C back then, but is now Kassel) and possibly Göttingen (actually over the border in the then-state of Hannover, but still not as far from Witzenhausen as Cassel (about 20 miles).

    I can’t identify the castle or ruin bottom right because part of the name is missing from the printing.  There is a Castle Bilstein (a possible reading of the text) but it’s a long way away, about 70 miles in fact, and this doesn’t seem to fit with the rest of the information.

    As to the pictures on the reverse – the ship is often a symbol of trade, as are the scales, on account of these being a standard part of a merchant’s equipment.  The caduceus, the winged staff entwined by serpents, is an attribute of the god Mercury / Hermes, the patron of merchants.  So it seems the whole reverse of the note is given over to symbols of trade, which is what the Retailers’ Association does.

    As to where it catalogues, I would imagine it’s catalogued by Tieste somewhere, possibly as a private issue? I shall keep looking!

    Hope this helps!

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34911
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Glad to help.  A little, anyway.  Now if someone could help me identify my piece, please?  I posted it last night (Pacific time) under the new topic: “Identification”.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34910
    Avatar photoGraham Yates
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    Hi Gary,

    Thanks for the fantastic information :good:

    I believe my note is 27.3 as I noticed the 0 is larger on the right at the back :yes:

    Cheers :yahoo:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34909
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    You’re welcome,  Gary – in fairness, it could just as easily have been Rechte Seite (right side)!

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34908
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Ouch, ouch, ouch.  And I’ve been reading RS as right side.  Thank you!!!!!!!!!

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34907
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Hi Graham and Gary, Rs. stands for Rückseite (back side or reverse) rather than Right Side.  On the back, the text is printed either black for all three denominations, or red for 10 Pf, blue for 25 Pf. and green for 50 Pf.  As yours is green, Graham, I think it’s one of the notes I mentioned?

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34906
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Btw, as far as I can make out,

    Grabowski L48.2c would be Tieste 4125.05.07

    Grabowski L48.3c would be Tieste 4125.05.12

    Grabowski L48.4c would be Tieste 4125.05.17

    Grabowski L48.6c would be Tieste 4125.05.27

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34905
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Since the RS (right side) seems to be the same as the left side, i.e. same size letters, not in color, I’d guess ’03’, listed at $30, or ’22’, listed at $20, depending on watermark and condition, is where your note falls.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34904
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Here is the page from the more extensive Tieste catalog:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34903
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Hi Graham, it’s under L48 in H.-L.Grabowski’s catalogue Deutsches Notgeld Band 5 : Deutsche Kleingeldscheine : Amtliche Verkehrsausgaben 1916-1922 (Aachen-Lingen).  It would have as a  watermark either Schippen (L48.2c or L48.3c) or Kreuze in Quadraten (L48.4c) or Zickzacklinien (L48.6c).  Checking the watermark will narrow it down first; if it’s Schippen, then to decide whether it’s L48.2c or L48.3c you’d have to measure the denominational value on the back, the “50” – if it’s “fat” i.e. 6-6.5 mm wide, then it’s L48.2c; if it’s “half-fat” i.e. 4.5-5mm wide, then it’s L48.3c.

    I think! But I’m happy to be corrected! Sometimes the intricacies of difference on the variants make my eyes water and my brain shut down.

    The reverse translates as : “This coupon is only intended for transactions with the municipal authorities of Lingen and is valid until the 1st April 1920.  All municipal finance offices of Lingen will accept this coupon in payment;  they will also upon demand and upon presentation of said coupons of the town of Lingen pay out in national currency and in full sum in marks to the same denominational value.”

    It’s signed on behalf of the town council (der Magistrat) and the Bürgervorsteherkollegium, which was (specifically in the Prussian province of Hannover and its pre-1866 predecessor the Kingdom of Hannover) a committee of citizens elected to scrutinise and oversee and pass a town council’s financial dealings.

    On the front, the town’s coat of arms showing three towers (gold on a red field) derives from Lingen’s three town gates – the Castle Gate, the Looken Gate and the Mill Gate.  The crown above it is a margrave’s crown which may reference the medieval overlords of the town, either the counts of Tecklenburg or their successors the counts of Lingen.

    Hope this helps a bit!

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34902
    Avatar photoGraham Yates
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    Hi Gary,

    Thanks but which one? I noticed they have 3 different 50pfg notes, which one is my note is?

    Cheers

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34901
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Here is the Tieste page for Lingen.  It appears that the text is not in color.  Regarding the thickness of the numerals, hard to say without something to compare it to.  They seem to be half-fat.  Can’t see the watermarks.  T-GM would know best.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34899
    Avatar photoGraham Yates
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    And the back 

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34898
    Avatar photoGraham Yates
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    Can anyone help me about this one? :unsure: 

    in reply to: GNCC Members #34897
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    This piece appears as if it might be a hospital ship, given the staff with the snakes on it.

    Anyway, I cannot identify it, can anyone help, please?

    in reply to: stoffgeld (material pieces) #34894
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    In July 1921 Bielefeld celebrated it’s 700th anniversary.  Next July will be it’s 800th anniversary.  I wonder whether they will issue any interesting currency or other souvenirs for the occasion.

    in reply to: Hilf !!! (Help)!! #34890
    Avatar photoCharles Schneider
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    Thanks a lot, Gary !!!

    That’s great info ! Now, if any of you can help me with info on where or how to obtain the Crusau-notes, I would be stunningly grateful!!

    Rgds.

     

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34887
    notgeldman
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    4 variant pieces now. Serial (with and without asterisk) and 2 further pieces stamped ‘Ungultig’ in purple and green. Anyone interested in them as they are on my desk!……… B-)

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34886
    notgeldman
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    Here is a lovely looking note from Crefeld dating from 1918 and depicting a silk weaver:

    The raised stampmark is known/denoted as ‘pragestempel’ :good:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34873
    notgeldman
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    Thanks Gary! I think I will add this in. There is an article about the ‘AOK’ on the website as I stumbled upon a great looking note from Saulgau and wanted to write about that.

    The red cross article is under serienscheine category so your note fits in well – thanks again.

    in reply to: Hilf !!! (Help)!! #34872
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    I found the follow by Google search:

    Around 1600 the Danish King and Duke of Schleswig Christian 4th had a hammer mill for metal processing built close to Flensburg on the Krusau.
    In 1628 the copper mill was destroyed in the Thirty Years War and was rebuilt the following year
    1633 oldest known document of the copper mill
    1644 the copper mill is destroyed and rebuilt three years later
    1657 the copper mill is destroyed in the Karl Gustav Wars and rebuilt by Hans Dencker
    1687 Hilmar von Lutten takes over the mill
    1747 Hildemar Thor Straten takes over the factory
    1766 Josias thor Straten takes over the work
    1802 Josias thor Straten II continues the work
    1830 The royal. Privileges are no longer renewed
    1842 F. Görrisen and JJ Danielsen take over the factory
    1857 Gebr. Schmidt and G. Dittmann and CC Danielsen take over the copper mill
    1864 the region goes to Prussia
    1871 Introduction of steam power
    1885 Friedrich Raben became the owner of the copper mill
    1889 Conversion to Crusauer Kupfer- und Messingfabrik AG
    1914–18 Kupfermühle is part of the armaments industry
    1919 the copper mill becomes a GmbH with seat in Hamburg, majority with the brothers Eduard and Paul Lotz
    1920 The population votes in favor of Germany
    1939–1945 during World War II, the copper mill is part of the armaments industry
    1956 Kupfermühle has to enter into a settlement
    1962 Kupfermühle is closed under the majority shareholder “Grillo Handelsgesellschaft mbH”
    By 1800 the copper and brass works had developed into the largest industrial facility in the Duchy of Schleswig and was considered one of the largest in the Kingdom of Denmark. The change from Danish to German administration after 1864, as well as the transition from water power to steam power and the two world wars, were successfully overcome. In 1962 the “Crusauer copper and brass factory” was closed. 10% of the copper smelted in Røros went directly to the Danish Crown and part of it was shipped in the form of plates or bars as raw copper by Flensburg drivers from Nordland for the copper mill.

    In 1956 the copper mill had to enter into a settlement and in 1962 the copper mill was closed under the main shareholder “Grillo Handelsgesellschaft mbH” after around 360 years of operation. During this period, the plant was destroyed and rebuilt several times, as copper played an important role in the shipping and armaments industries.

     

    in reply to: GNCC Members #34871
    Avatar photoCharles Schneider
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    To All:

    Can any of you help me find anything useable on: Crusauer Kupfer- und Messingwerke? The only scanty info I found, was with Karl Lund: Papiernotgeld Schleswig-Holstein & Hamburg 1914-24, but that’s next to nothing to go by !!

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34870
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Under the topic of curiosities, I came across this Salzungen piece yesterday.  The Red Cross article reminded me of this because it’s a scene of a hospital.

    Anyway, it seems this piece is not a rarity.  It’s marked 75 on one side and 95 on the other.  There’s a little red stamp that says it’s only worth 75pf.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34869
    notgeldman
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    I have just published my ‘Red Cross‘ issues article. Please have a look from the homepage (right hand side) – latest articles. Let me know of others please: :good:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34866
    notgeldman
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    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34860
    notgeldman
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    Gary – These Altrahlstedt notes are very interesting and there is an article on the website about them. They are also included in my ‘German Gems‘ book as I know a lot of collectors will be like you. There are 3 different overprints – 2 in black with different dates and 1 in blue (from memory??) …..so a few to collect!

    When these were originally issued (1921) the hyper-inflation wasn’t there. In 1922 ‘remaining’ pieces were then over-stamped and ‘re-issued’.

    Serienscheine were issued to collectors and anyone who wanted them for a price. They were extremely popular so ‘everyone’ started to produce them and jump on the band-wagon so to speak. B-)

    Here is my website article :

    https://notgeld.com/gncc-notgeld-articles/altrahlstedt/

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34859
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    THIS IS THE 3RD PART OF MY POST, THE FINAL JPEG, THE BACK OF THE NOTGELD:

     

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34858
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    THIS IS MY NEXT POST, THE SALES CATALOG PAGE FROM TIESTE:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34857
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    DISCLAIMER:  This post is in 3 parts.  Why?  Because I’m having trouble adding my  jpegs to it.  Possibly they are too large.  Therefore, I’ll do the text here, the next post will have the 1st jpeg, the following post will have the 2nd jpeg.  I hope this all works.

    Here’s the text:

    So, sorting my heaps of notgeld, I come across this set.  Thought I really had it made.  Here is the sales page from Tieste:

    SEE NEXT POST FOR THIS JPEG

    How wonderful, I thought.  Out of curiosity, I wondered what the several-year-old Lindman catalog had it listed for.  Then:  “DOOM”.  Lindman had a small notation that overprinted issues were NOT Serienschiene.  So of course, all of mine had the overprint.  All had the same overprint.  One sample here :

    SEE THE 2ND FOLLOWING POST FOR THIS JPEG

    So disappointed.  But…life goes on.

    Anyway, this made me think:  What exactly defines notes as Serienschiene?  Did the various towns just hand them out or sell tlhem?  And what could you do with them?  Bread costing thousands or millions of Mark, what could you buy for 50 pennies or so?

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34853
    notgeldman
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    John – my ‘Forum Guru’ indeed :bye:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34851
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Hi John, it’s the 25 Pfennig note from Rudolph Schade’s inn on the Brocken Mountain (Brockenwirtschaft) near Schierke in the Harz region, catalogued by Grabowski / Mehl as 1177.2 and by Kai Lindman as 1147.1 (without the additional circular stamp).  There is indeed a Fairy Tale Forest (Märchenwald) mini theme park at nearby Bad Harzburg, about 6 or 7 miles away, and it may be that this or another attraction of the same name dates back to the early 20th century, but I suspect that this the word and the pictures are  just a reference to the fairy-tale nature of the forests both up on the Brocken and all around the Harz.  By the time the notes were issued, the innkeeper Rudolph Schade had written a book in 1909 entitled The Brocken and its Features of Natural Beauty in Summer and Winter; he followed up with The Book of the Brocken and  The Brocken : Treatises on the Mountain’s History and Nature, both published in 1926 by E. Appelhans & Co., Brunswick.

    I was up on the Brocken in 2019 in the most frightfully cold and rainy weather (it was nice when I set out on the Brocken steam train at the foot of the mountain, but the weather changed).  The inn is still there at the uppermost train halt, although it was closed for the whole of the Cold War due to the mountain being a major East German listening station.  I can say that the forests and the rock formations on the way up and down, a paradise (in better weather) for hikers such as the 19th-century poet Heinrich Heine, might well be described as fairy tale, or at least “other-worldly.”

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34847
    notgeldman
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    Thanks Chuck. See what you can do but don’t worry too much :wacko:

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34846
    notgeldman
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    John,

    Its notgeld! B-)

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34845
    Avatar photoChuck Haupt
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    I get it because I am a member of the ANA.  But I only get a digital version.  Maybe I can print it, scan it and share it.  I’ll try.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34844
    Avatar photoJohn Arkenberg
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    I’ve greatly enjoyed all the posts here and have certainly learned a lot since I’m new to collecting notgeld. I thought it would be funny to share this piece of “erroneous notgeld” I found. A few months ago I purchased a pack of 100 pieces of notgeld just to understand more about it and see the diversity and history. However, I think a piece of “money” from the Fairy Tale Theme Park near Brocken made it into the pack. You can see that it looks a lot like notgeld, it looks old-ish, and has a colorful design that could be notgeld. However, my guess is from the fact it says “not for public use” that this is theme park money.

    Thought it would be good for a chuckle from you all. Or…maybe one of you actually knows something about this.

    Maerchenwald am Brocken

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34843
    notgeldman
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    Thanks John.

    Thanks Chuck. Does anyone have a copy of the article or do you have to have a subscription etc?

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34842
    Avatar photoChuck Haupt
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    Sorry. That should read the March issue of the Numismatist. Darn autocorrect.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34841
    Avatar photoChuck Haupt
    Participant
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    For anyone interested there is a very interesting article in the March issue of The Numismatic on Reutergeld.  I found it to be very informative.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34840
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Hi Tony, the sentence reads : “The notes previously catalogued here are Verkehrsausgaben“. I imagine they were originally catalogued as Serienscheine in earlier editions (Grabowski & Mehl are currently on their 3rd edition of volumes 1 & 2), but now that they’ve been re-catalogued as Verkehrausgaben,  the authors have added the note for users of the previous editions (and to save re-numbering the entire catalogue).  There’s a similar note for the series of the Osnabrück Freemasons’ Lodge of the Golden Wheel (G / M 1029A1), where the authors have reconsidered an entry made in a previous edition (here they inform the reader that these notes are in fact a modern print run of 1970-73; the information was provided by Lodge members).  [Just checked : the Grube Ilse correction was already made for the 2nd edition; the Osnabrück correction appears for the first time in the 3rd edition.]  As you say, Lindman doesn’t include the Grube Ilse set in Band 2 : Spezialkatalog – Serienscheine; nor does he include the Osnabrück notes.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34839
    notgeldman
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    The Gr/Mehl entry for Grube Ilse (487) has a couple of sentences in German. Can someone translate it for me please? I am guessing that Grabowski / Mehl is making a point that the set could be serienscheine rather than private verkehrsausgaben pieces? I don’t know why they have given them a serienscheine catalogue number?? My rule, I always stick to, is this…..’if it isn’t catalogued by Lindman in his Band 2 spezial serienscheine catalogue, then it isn’t serienscheine.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34838
    notgeldman
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    Thanks John for the info. What a shame German notgeld ‘missed out’ on this subject matter. The Austrian types I think look superb. :-)

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34837
    Avatar photoJohn Adams
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    Germany has got its Krampus traditions, mainly in Southern Bavaria near Austria but also in the Upper Palatinate apparently.  There.s even a parade of 400 Krampuses planned in Munich for Advent 2021, which I’d love to get my camera to. Apparently the grotesque figure is also a feature of Advent in other parts of the former Habsburg empire, in Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, South Tyrol and the Trentino. There’s a lot of it about, so it seems, but not on German Notgeld!

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34836
    notgeldman
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    I’ve heard he beats them with his birch twigs. It seems funny to me that he doesn’t appear on any German notgeld though…..just Austrian. Maybe Germany is too western for the mythology??

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34828
    Avatar photoGary Rosenthal
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    Regarding Krampus, if I recall correctly, he is supposed to bring children a sack of coal for Christmas if they’ve been bad.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34827
    notgeldman
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    Here is an Austrian set of notgeld with an overprint depicting ‘Krampus’. He doesn’t appear on any German notgeld (that I am aware of). He is a kind of demonic opposite of Santa Claus, who rather than giving good children presents, punishes bad children!

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34824
    notgeldman
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    FYI – I have just amended the forum rankings so pls don’t worry if yours has changed. The more posts you add, the higher your ranking.

    I am aware there are a few niggles with the forum but please just reply to the top (latest) post…..even if the reply is to another thread. I have removed ‘nesting’ so that any new post from now on should show at the very top. Once posted, you may have to reposition to pg 1 (top of the forum) for some unknown reason it might place you somewhere different. I am sure we can all work with it though. It is better than nothing. – thanks in advance.

    in reply to: general notgeld chit-chat #34816
    notgeldman
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    All the GNCC members are very clever in their own particular way. Together, we all form a fantastic group of specialised collectors. Those with German translation and history skills are particularly helpful to us all. Don’t forget, the more posts you make the higher your ranking goes. I just noticed mine has changed but I didn’t really intend that to happen. I might change the ‘top limit’ of posts made…… ;-)

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